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Re: [sc-users] will there ever be real multiprocessor support?

Hi Scott,

one remark:
not be syntactically very different from just sending things to multiple running server processes, as you can do now.
This is where the problems are now. In leopard running on anything other then the built-in soundcard, the running of multiple server apps presents 2 problems:
1- the servers sometimes fail to start (the more servers, the bigger the problem) 2- the servers randomly get into a state of permanent clicking (from osx 10.4.10 and above)
if those issues were solved, and a few things in the lang were adapted to equally dividing tasks over various servers, I would call SC multi- processor supportive. Right now it is not unfortunately.. 

cheers,
Wouter

Op 5 mrt 2009, om 10:43 heeft Scott Wilson het volgende geschreven:
It may well be that DAWs and other programming environments are multiprocessor, but I would be very curious to know how the work is being distributed.
SC *is* multiprocessor. The language and server run in different processes. Different threads can run on different processors. Any background OS stuff can possibly run on a different core.
What is not multiprocessor is the audio thread. In order to make it so you would in any case need some way of specifying which audio processes are not interdependent. Although it may be possible to somehow do this automatically, I suspect that any solution would not be syntactically very different from just sending things to multiple running server processes, as you can do now.
I also suspect that the DAWs you mention may be dividing things up in a similar fashion to SC, e.g. graphics on one core, audio on another. But as I said I'd be curious to know more. 

S.

On 5 Mar 2009, at 02:21, Josh Parmenter wrote:


Hi Miguel,
This isn't a trivial endeavor. It will require rewriting quite a bit of the foundational code in SuperCollider. I imagine it will happen, but not quickly. Part of the discussion for work of this scale will also include a discussion on possible architecture changes (I would imagine).
The major DAWs pay their coders quite a bit for those tools. That is their job. Nobody's job here is to build SC. We all have other jobs, and do this in our other time. So they really can't be compared. Some of us have already looked at this next step, and it is a big one. It is certainly not easy, and it will require of most developers the learning of a new tool set. Then - add in cross- platform concerns, and a whole new mess is created. 

Josh

On Mar 4, 2009, at 5:46 PM, Miguel Negrao wrote:
But all the major daws (protools, logic, cubasem nuendo, etc) support multi-processors, and now even max/msp supports them and csound has experimental multi-core on 5.0.9. I guess putting several servers sending audio to each other through jack might be a temporary solution, but still that's a big headache... Off course I'm not saying it's easy, but it just seems to me that it will have to be adressed at some point in order for the sc to not become obsolete. Fierceless sc programmers out there, sink your teeth into this problem so that you can have the glory of being the one to make sc multi-core friendly ! We promise we will build a statue for you! :-) 

Miguel
ps: how much of delay is there introduced by sending audio between two apps using jack ? 

Wouter Snoei escreveu:

Hi Miguel,
as far as I understood this issue gives headaches even to the most experienced dsp programmers in the world. AFAIK none of the existing audio programming languages deals well with multiprocessor machines; there is always some drawback where users have to spawn multiple processes which can't interact. I hope some kind of solution will be found for it at some point, but I don't think it will soon. 
Please anyone tell me if I'm wrong about this ..
cheers,
Wouter
Op 4 mrt 2009, om 20:58 heeft Miguel Negrao het volgende geschreven:
A bit out of topic, but what are the prospects that supercollider becoming trully multi-processor friendly ? In my case my synths all send audio to each other so i can't even use several servers and I'm stuck with using just one core... Computers are only going to become more multi-processor from now on, with mac pros with 16 corea around the corner, so is there a plan to adress this in the future ? 

--
Miguel Negrão // ZLB
http://www.friendlyvirus.org/artists/zlb/

Wouter Snoei escreveu:

Hi,
I'm researching the possibility to use JackOSX for solving the problems I'm experiencing with multiple servers on our WFS system. So far it seems to work, but I'm bumping into some kind of maximum inside Jack. When I try to boot 8 servers with 96 channels output each (which is what I need for our system) it stops after booting the 4th. I've set jack to verbose mode and posted the messages I got below. It says "JAR: Cannot register ports" as most important message. Could anyone give me a hint on why this happens, and if there is a way around it (maybe increasing memory size somewhere)? It works fine when I set it to less channels (but to me there is no use for that), although I need to wait ±5s between every server start. If I don't it only starts 3 or 4 in JackRouter and the rest in built-in. The occasional boot failures are still present here, but that is not my biggest problem. What I hope to accomplish here is to get rid of the clicking, as discussed earlier on the list. I'm using SC3.3a rev8828, OSX 10.5.6, jack v#0.81. jack message at first failed server (there are already 4 scsynths running here): SC_AudioDriver: sample rate = 44100.000000, driver's block size = 1024 
JAR: JackRouterDevice::IsSafeToExecuteCommand theAnswer = 1
JAR: JackRouterDevice::StartCommandExecution
JAR: JackRouterDevice::AddIOProc
JAR: JackRouterDevice::Open id 368 name scsynth
JAR: AllocatePorts fInputChannels = 8 fOutputChannels = 96
JAR: Cannot register ports
JAR: DisposePorts
JAR: DisposePorts input 0
JAR: DisposePorts input 1
JAR: DisposePorts input 2
JAR: DisposePorts input 3
JAR: DisposePorts input 4
JAR: DisposePorts input 5
JAR: DisposePorts input 6
JAR: DisposePorts input 7
JAR: DisposePorts output 0
JAR: DisposePorts output 1
JAR: DisposePorts output 2
JAR: DisposePorts output 3
JAR: DisposePorts output 4
JAR: DisposePorts output 5
JAR: DisposePorts output 6
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JAR: JackRouterDevice::FinishCommandExecution
AudioDeviceAddIOProc failed 1852797029
start audio failed.
JAR: HP_Device::Do_StopAllIOProcs
JAR: JackRouterDevice::IsSafeToExecuteCommand jack_client_thread_id = 0 pthread_self = -1607059680 
JAR: JackRouterDevice::IsSafeToExecuteCommand theAnswer = 1
JAR: JackRouterDevice::StartCommandExecution
JAR: HP_Device::StopAllIOProcs 0
JAR: JackRouterDevice::StopAllIOProcs
JAR: JackRouterDevice::FinishCommandExecution
JAR: JackRouterPlugIn::Teardown 1
RESULT = 1
ERROR:
server failed to start
cheers,
Wouter
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******************************************
/* Joshua D. Parmenter
http://www.realizedsound.net/josh/
“Every composer – at all times and in all cases – gives his own interpretation of how modern society is structured: whether actively or passively, consciously or unconsciously, he makes choices in this regard. He may be conservative or he may subject himself to continual renewal; or he may strive for a revolutionary, historical or social palingenesis." - Luigi Nono 
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